Author Topic: Poole Backstamp Conundrum? (Read 15178 times)

David · « **on:** January 11, 2009, 11:17:20 PM »

The following is a real oddity, but Anne Wilkinson (author of Poole Twintone and Tableware) and I are trying to determine this very odd backstamp.

This query has also been posted on two other pottery forums, so apologies if you come across the duplicated topic.

The item was purchased in Canada - Poole did export there - but the impressed Poole mark is not known. So why the Royal Norfolk overstamp?

We have hypothosised over possible reasons: a trial piece; a forgery or fake; a test piece designed by Poole, but produced by Royal Norfolk; another 'Poole' pottery, based in, or around Poole, etc.

Could it be a small company, trying to emulate Twintone, and sell their wares illegally to Royal Norfolk? Has anyone ever seen similar markings?

The thing that intrigues me, is why impress it in the first place, and then stamp it? I can’t really see a known maker of pottery deliberately faking another maker’s piece of tableware, and then putting its own mark on it!

The final point is why bother? OK, so it is an unusual shape (but definitely not from Poole), so what would the perpertrators gain from this? Was it some form of scam?

Any views would be most welcome in trying to solve this mystery! With luck, if it can be solved, I will try to include the result in the book.

Lustrousstone · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:02:44 PM »

Here's a different one http://www.trademe.co.nz/Pottery-glass/Porcelain-pottery/Poole/auction-192210167.htm

Where was this piece bought from

It's possible that production was simply outsourced, i.e. made by Poole and wholesaled by Royal Norfolk, or there was some other form of collaboration. I'll look up the Royal Norfolk mark at home.

It's not unknown for pottery to be double marked by two companies

David · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2009, 01:41:25 PM »

Thanks Christine.

Royal Norfolk is a known Staffordshire brand. According to the 'tinternet it was formed in 1958, however, there is mention on www.thepotteries.org of a Norfolk Works in 1900:

http://www.thepotteries.org/industry/glass_works/falcon_map.htm

Thanks to Steve Birks for this.

I also checked the Miller's book for the Royal Norfolk backstamp, but was unable to locate it. Other links to this backstamp reveals quite different marks, although the crown does figure:

http://www.retroselect.com/Colin%20Melbourne/Colin%20Melbourne.htm
2nd item from bottom

http://www.studiopottery.com/cgi-bin/pp.cgi?item=338
different style crown

http://www.tias.com/13339/PictPage/1922916434.html
1970s?

Anne · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2009, 05:55:12 PM »

David, the Royal Norfolk backstamp on your piece is shown in Miller's Pottery & Porcelain Marks, by Gordon Lang - see page 203 under Norfolk Pottery Co Ltd, Shelton, Staffs. (Confusingly, it's indexed under Norfolk not Royal Norfolk in the back.)

David · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:00:38 PM »

Ah, thanks, found it now! I assumed that Royal Norfolk was the company and brand name. I see they date the company from 1958, which is a little strange given the link above.

Anyway, it confirms the backstamp is the same as that shown in Miller's, but not why it is on there with the Poole impression.

EDIT: Christine, thanks for the TradeMe link - I couldn't get on earlier.

Anne · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:14:54 PM »

David, me again.

You know by now how my mind works so.... I was mooching around looking for Poole and Royal Norfolk connections, and this may be a bit tangentical but, reading here: http://www.poolepotterycollectorsclub.co.uk/ it refers to "The Poole production facilities were recreated at the Royal Stafford site in Stoke on Trent under the guidance of Norman Tempest, Managing Director of Poole 2007 and Royal Stafford. " ... and... then back to Gordon Lang again, (page 317) where it says Royal Stafford China was Thomas Poole at Longton Staffs. Seems a bit of a co-incidence so maybe a line to explore?

David · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2009, 06:18:51 PM »

Aha, so this could be the latest offerings from The Lifestyle Group (which purchased the rights to Poole Pottery). Anne has been in touch with Norman Tempest (sounds more like a super-hero!), so that will be another lead to follow. Great.

I was aware of a family Poole connection in Stoke on Trent, but this may be just a coincidence.

Lustrousstone · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:01:43 PM »

According to Godden there were Pooles making earthenware at various places in Staffordshire at least from the 1790s. it's all very nepotistic

Norfolk Pottery Company Ltd was dissolved in 1993

David · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2009, 09:44:54 PM »

I wonder if there is no relation between Norfolk Pottery Ltd and Royal Norfolk? Perhaps R.N. is/was a brandname of Royal Staffs?

Anne · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2009, 12:08:10 AM »

According to Lang, Royal Norfolk was a trademark of Norfolk Pottery Ltd.

A different backstamp saying Royal Norfolk with a crown over N over the lettering, was registered as a trademark in 2005 by an Italian company:
PENGO S.P.A., Via Antonio Pigafetta, 3, Bassano del Grappa (VI), Italy, 36061, but I don't think there's any connection with yours.

Lustrousstone · « **Reply #10 on:** January 13, 2009, 08:01:08 AM »

I agree with Anne, Godden says the same, and he's supposed to be "the man". The pottery was on Norfolk Street, hence the name, and was, as you showed, there well before 1958.

Royal Staffordshire Pottery was Arthur J Wilkinson
Royal Staffordshire China was E Hughes
I'm not sure there ever was a company called Royal Staffordshire - just a brandname - unregistered at that

It's possible that this version of Royal Norfolk is a distributor's mark, as both items shown are/were not in the UK. Royal Norfolk is registered in the US to a distribution company

David · « **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2009, 08:42:41 AM »

I did mean that R.N was a brandname that was bought up by Royal Staffs - e.g. do we know what happened to Norfolk Pottery and its assets after its demise?

antiquerose123 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2009, 12:38:12 AM »

Wow. that was very interesting info.

David · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2009, 09:00:33 AM »

On the Poole Pottery forum here:
http://www.poolepotterycollectorsclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=871
Gareth reckons the impressed 'Poole' mark is not known as being made by Poole Pottery. This doesn't entirely discount the link, of course, but does place some doubt on whether the plate, in its biscuit state, did derive from Poole Pottery.

There's also an opinion that the piece has some age. For myself, and I do appear to be in a minority, it does seem quite new. The clean base ring and the lack of wear, for example, and the fresh-looking appearance to the backstamp. Judging age by style is never a consistent approach, although it can provide guides, of course.

Fortunately, I have made room in the book for any change to the caption for this piece, so I reckon we have until mid-March to try and find an answer!

Edit: worth looking at the reply from 'Edward-Poole' as well.

Anne · « **Reply #14 on:** January 16, 2009, 12:12:03 AM »

Another forum which requires you to be a member to read their posts - what is with other forums? Are they scared someone will steal their members or their posts or what?

David · « **Reply #15 on:** January 16, 2009, 08:01:44 AM »

I wasn't aware of that - I always thought it was an open forum...

Ah well, I posted on the PP forum to mention that some answers had been posted here, so perhaps they'll open it up. I could not find anything to prevent me from posting information cross-boards, so here they are, credited to the poster and on the basis that short passages are permissable:

Quote from: Edward-Poole

The item featured, I feel has some age to it, based on the shape, the look and style. Whilst it's Staffordshire based, I'm not sure as to a link with Norman and Royal Stafford / Life Style Group. It has been suggested that it is a pattern name, again I'm not sure this is a good explanation. It is to closely associated with the 'Made in England'

It could be that Poole were commissioned to make the biscuit blanks and Royal Norfolk finished them. Much the same happens today. Many companies buy in the biscuit ware and just decorate and finish. Indeed Poole have done this themselves. You may recall a thread some time ago relating to an 18 inch charger with 'Made in Italy' on the back along with a Poole mark and Gem Stone Pattern. The seller had speculated that Poole had at some time been made under license in Italy. When in fact Poole had purchased the plates as biscuit. This would be considerably cheaper than tooling up for a small production run.

I'm sure Edward is right about it not being a pattern name. But I'm really am not sure about the age question. It might very well be vintage, for all I know, but it doesn't appear old at all and gauging by style can often be misleading, as we are all aware. As Christine also alluded to, the transferance of biscuit blanks between factories does make this possible, however, in reply to my query about whether the impressed 'POOLE' mark had ever been noted before:

Quote from: gareth-h

As far as I can recall Poole have never used "Poole Made In England" as a mark, it has always been "Poole England", so I think not Poole Pottery.

If Lifestyle had anything to do with it you would expect to have seen examples in the Poole quay shop, which I haven't. It looks older than that in any case.

A bit of a curiosity. I have never seen anything like it.

... which sheds some doubt on whether it is made by Poole. Conjecture, but I wondered whether Poole Pottery would have used the same tool to make the impressed mark, and this would then have been seen elsewhere.

I suppose the impressed mark would have been part of any base mould, but similar tools would have been used to create the mark in the mould, I assume.

Note to Anne: I think the quoted text needs increasing in size a trifle?

Tigerchips · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2009, 10:13:01 AM »

There's a Royal Norfolk item on ebay with Brentleigh ware impressed on the base...

This pottery company (Howard Pottery Co Ltd) was based in Norfolk street... http://www.thepotteries.org/allpotters/571.htm

David · « **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2009, 11:07:23 AM »

Thanks TC - couldn't find that particular listing, but having delved a little deeper into eBay, I now see three items with the backstamp, listed under Royal Winton. But I'm getting a little confused now as there does appear to be a Royal Norfolk Pottery, as well as Norfolk Pottery. See HERE

Heck, the more I delve, the more confusing this becomes!

Anne · « **Reply #18 on:** May 29, 2009, 12:15:29 AM »

David, I've just found another shaped piece which I think may help solve the puzzle: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Antiques-collectables/Art-deco-retro/Home-d%C3%A9cor/Plates-bowls-dishes/auction-219367997.htm - again it's marked Royal Norfolk, but with an impressed CONISTON this time, which I'd suggest is the shape name, so your one could be shape name POOLE. I bet there was a whole set of these done by Royal Norfolk with such names!

David · « **Reply #19 on:** May 29, 2009, 08:54:33 AM »

That's great, thanks Anne! I've just mailed the other Anne to alert her. As you say, definitely a shape definition - now I wonder if they are stylistically shaped to resemble the various locations?!